Curse

cebalrai · Mar 27, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

From the seller's perspective, he's getting money. I think that's what he's referring to more than an injection into the economy.

Phaern Majes · Mar 27, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

Black market refers to a market that is illegal. Since Anet put a "TRADE" button and window in the game I fail to see how trading is illegal therefore black market.

As for your point, no money may be generated but on a personal level it allows a player to gain a better profit if they trade their items with others. Who cares where the gold originated from, its in my pocket now. A player that takes a req 9 crystalline sword and sells it to the merchant for 300g doesn't make the 100k + however many ectos that the player, who has the exact same sword, makes from trading it to another player. Sure no money is "created" but that player is definitely richer than the other guy.

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Since others seem to be even less familiar with basic economical concepts I won't elaborate any further before the level of discussion actually drops below zero (hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor

).

No, no matter what your real world credentials, you're coming up with a totally specious, totally non-relevant set of arguments to defend your personal wish for easier income (now who's the communist?

)

It's not a salary cap, it is, if anything, progressive taxation. You don't have a real time line affecting your input/output of capital in the game, so any attempt to relate income per hour of farming pre/post LS is not at all relevant to the two economic extremes you are pretending it is. Nobody is coming to collect the rent/mortgage on the first of every month, nobody is charging your character for time played, nobody is all but forcing you to spend the majority of your time farming just to continue existence in game. No, it IS a game with game goals and no linear progression of time to achieve those goals. The Lich doesn't win because I stopped at Abbadon's Mouth and spent two real months working my character through Nightfall and GWEN because I wanted more heros before tackling the end of Prophecies. If I stop playing the game for a month and come back I still have all the gear and money I had when I left and there's no eviction notice on my door or collection letter agencies because my income dropped to zero during that time.

There is simply no way you can claim LS or no LS that this is anything other than a capitalist system with a killer set of social programs on top of it - your health care and room & board are 100% paid for with nothing expected in return. Plus, like any good capitalist system, because you are rewarded fairly for the basics and more work equals more income, everybody will have some level of disposable income for pursuing the luxury goals of their choice. However, as is oft pointed out, the freedom to pursue luxury goals is not the same as a guarantee of achieving them.

So, stop pretending you've got some secret insight into the game borne out by your real world job, you clearly don't or you wouldn't have made your argument in the first place.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

XDDD

You are indeed funny. Gold is not meant to be 'created'. Is meant to vanish to prevent inflation. That's why all gold sinks are there.

And Traders DO tax. They tax the buyer, not the seller, by having a difference between the sell and buy prices.
Just look at some minimun sell/buy prices:
Scrolls: Sell 400g, buy 800g.
Dyes: Sell 10g, buy 100g.
Upgrades: Sell 25g, buy 100g.

But when a player chooses to sell to other players, where's the cost?
TIME. Yes, time. If you just farm, you dedicate all your time to farming.
If you trade with other characters, you lose farming time to trade.

Time is gold. That's is something BASIC that anyone knows.

If they added a Xunlai Market it would also have a 'charge', a percentage of the price the seller lose, to compensate the lack of the 'time lost' due to a faster system.

All the truth is in Queen's lyrics. Like "I want it all" or:
http://lyricsletras.blogspot.com/200...-rhapsody.html

Just open your eyes and see.

Cab Tastic · Mar 27, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Sigh. Trading between players does not create a single gold piece in the economy, so it is not productive activity (the goods must come from elsewhere). Neither does it get taxed if it doesn't go through traders, and hence it's a part of the black market. The only essential issues are sources through which new wealth come into the economy and sinks that remove it. Player-to-player trading does neither.

Tmakinen, you have my sympathies. You make an blindingly obvious point here and get shot down in flames. If such a simple concept as this is being misunderstood how can they possibly deal with understanding the consequences of LS.

LS is hard to defend and its no wonder its being done poorly.

(i) Prices were gradually dropping pre LS and yet all we here about it inflation.

(ii) There is a massive oversupply of almost all items in this game. check out kamadan for WTS spam. Causing lower prices. Inflationary pressure from farming cannot hope to combat the massive oversupply.

(iii) Given the panic patch of LS a few days after implementation exempting a good percentage of drops in GW shows how much thought went into this nerf.
If I made such a bad decision on such an important project i would have to resign on general principle.

(iv) Most importantly of all its a nerf of fun. As I mentioned some time ago its like opening christmas presents only to find nothing inside. It took away a certain aspect of the game which many enjoyed. I used to enjoy running zones with reduced parties to get more drops. In essence creating my own HM. No point now.

HawkofStorms · Mar 27, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Black market refers to a market that is illegal.

No, a black market refers to any market that is unofficial (like armbrace trading or trading of req 7s, it has no set value except what the seller and buyer agree upon). Black markets are usually illegal in the real world, but do not have to be.

Edit: Agreed with above. tmakinen has my sympathies. Obviously a lot of people don't understand economics and still want to chime in and flame you.

Phaern Majes · Mar 27, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

No, a black market refers to any market that is unofficial (like armbrace trading or trading of req 7s, it has no set value except what the seller and buyer agree upon). Black markets are usually illegal in the real world, but do not have to be.

Forgive me I just go by dictionary definitions...argue the fine points with them.

black market
–noun
1. the illicit buying and selling of goods in violation of legal price controls, rationing, etc.
2. a place where such activity is carried on.

il·lic·it /ɪˈlɪsɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-lis-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. not legally permitted or authorized; unlicensed; unlawful.
2. disapproved of or not permitted for moral or ethical reasons.

Anyways even if you use your definition my point still holds as player trading is very "official".

MSecorsky · Mar 27, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

(hint, I'm a middle aged scientist and one of the leading experts in the world in my particular field of study, so if there's a disparity in the intellectual level of arguments, don't immediately assume that they are working in your favor

).

Forgive my asking, but the situation requires I do so... does your area of expertise tie directly to loot-scaling or anything else relevant to the discussion? You can meet the greatest mind in quantum physics, but odds are he won't tell you how to brew a better beer.

Gli · Mar 27, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

(iv) Most importantly of all its a nerf of fun. As I mentioned some time ago its like opening christmas presents only to find nothing inside. It took away a certain aspect of the game which many enjoyed. I used to enjoy running zones with reduced parties to get more drops. In essence creating my own HM. No point now.

For the umpteenth time, you still get more drops with a reduced party.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Even in Economy books 'black market' do not refer to 'unofficial' but to 'out of control'.

Even if you try to consider a grage sale 'black market', you'll get surprised in how many countries have laws and rules even about that.

But, terms aside, you cannot start with comparisons.

You must see the design Anet pretended to make, and their intention never was prices over 100k and having to farm to buy things from others.

Their intention always was most prices under 100k (with the exception of very, very rare items like miniatures) and being a ble to get anything just by playing normally in parties of 2..8 human players.

Gli · Mar 27, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

No, a black market refers to any market that is unofficial (like armbrace trading or trading of req 7s, it has no set value except what the seller and buyer agree upon). Black markets are usually illegal in the real world, but do not have to be.

Edit: Agreed with above. tmakinen has my sympathies. Obviously a lot of people don't understand economics and still want to chime in and flame you.

The legal but unofficial markets you're referring to are usually known as 'grey market'

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Forgive my asking, but the situation requires I do so... does your area of expertise tie directly to loot-scaling or anything else relevant to the discussion?

Well, if every account was limited to, say, playing 40 hours per week (but you could buy a second or even third account to get around this and pool all the extra resources to your main account), and everybody had a fixed set of expenses that they had to pay each month by a certain deadline or lose the account (and the extra accounts had their own version of LS such that you didn't have to pay full price to play in additional accounts, just a smaller fee we'll call "Fast Food & Transportation"), and LS didn't just affect gold & common items but everything, then, sure, I can see where trying to argue that LS has a negative effect on the economy according to his claimed expertise might be somewhat arguable. But, since it doesn't work anything like that...

mr_groovy · Mar 27, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Even in Economy books 'black market' do not refer to 'unofficial' but to 'out of control'.

Even if you try to consider a grage sale 'black market', you'll get surprised in how many countries have laws and rules even about that.

But, terms aside, you cannot start with comparisons.

You must see the design Anet pretended to make, and their intention never was prices over 100k and having to farm to buy things from others.

Their intention always was most prices under 100k (with the exception of very, very rare items like miniatures) and being a ble to get anything just by playing normally in parties of 2..8 human players.

hmm mini polar bear, because it's so casual. Hmm obsidian amor + chaos gloves because they are so causal too.

MithranArkanere · Mar 27, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

As I said, with the exceptions of very, very rare items like miniatures.

Since equipable armors do not drop from monsters, 'rare' in an armor means EXPENSIVE.

We went through that already, and you perfectly know that you do not need all the prestige armors, and to fill the HoM you only need 5 of them, so you can just pick the cheapest ones.

MSecorsky · Mar 27, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

hmm mini polar bear, because it's so casual. Hmm obsidian amor + chaos gloves because they are so causal too.

Did you deliberately miss the point or was it a reflexive action?

GW was never intended to be an economically driven game. Everything rolls back to the initial skill>time premise things were developed on. Why do you think you can't trade more than 100K gold at a time? It's by design and intent, not oversight. Why do you think as the game has progressed changes have been made which result in decreased prices for most items? Again, by design. The addition of ultra-rare high-end items was to appease the few that went well beyond the scope of the game, but the intent remains.

reetkever · Mar 27, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I am hardly getting anything special in my drops. I'm not luckier, I'm not richer

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I can already buy a set of elite armor every few weeks just playing the game, I hardly see why it should get any easier if it's to have any sense of accomplishment at all.

Uhu...

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

Hell, I think *everything* should be scaled, no exemptions whatsoever - it should never matter if you play solo or in a party of eight, period.

Believe me, I've been there during the time where everything was scaled. A massive rise of prices was created and A-Net was FORCED to un-nerf most drops in order to keep at least SOME things low in price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

It's an outlook on gaming that is based in laziness and greed, nothing more.

The removal of the Loot Scaling has nothing to do with greed and laziness. Instead, it encourages players to work towards their goals. You seem to think that farming without LS is really profitable. It isn't. Almost any Hardcore farm spot still earns WAY more money than a Troll run, for example. Even without LS, it would still take an average player a few months before he can buy FoW armour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

It's ironic that probably most of the "remove LS" yahoos are the same people who think UB needs nerfed/removed. I'd much rather see UB in the game from now until they unplug the last server than removing LS.

So, first you say that LS should stay because it is lazy, and then you say you'd rather have Ursan, even though they make 10x as much money, 10x faster and 10x easier?

cebalrai · Mar 27, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Black market refers to a market that is illegal. Since Anet put a "TRADE" button and window in the game I fail to see how trading is illegal therefore black market.

As for your point, no money may be generated but on a personal level it allows a player to gain a better profit if they trade their items with others. Who cares where the gold originated from, its in my pocket now. A player that takes a req 9 crystalline sword and sells it to the merchant for 300g doesn't make the 100k + however many ectos that the player, who has the exact same sword, makes from trading it to another player. Sure no money is "created" but that player is definitely richer than the other guy.

What about this definition? (from dictionary.com, one of the seven)

Black Market

A type of economic activity that takes place outside of government-sanctioned channels.

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Did you deliberately miss the point or was it a reflexive action?

I figure it's neither, he probably meant it as a serious reply. I've come to the conclusion that people like Mr. G honestly believe that every single thing within the game should be achievable by every single player of the game with, if not no effort, certainly much less than *some* items require. It seems to chafe at them that there are a select few goals and items that no reasonable level of play will put in your reach.

In this, I'll admit that GW is very different than most games. Your average game is a lot more like the discoveries for the BMP: a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months and, blam, every single thing within the game unlocked. You might play a bit longer until you're tired of it, then move on. GW, OTOH, in spite of eschewing traditional MMO mechanics for so much of the game, wholeheartedly embraces the notion that there are simply some goals and items that will only be accessible after an arguably ridiculous amount of grind (e.g. incorrigble ale hound & grand master treasure hunter) and some still might not be achievable even then (greased lightning and polar bear minis).

I don't see the problem since the goals are pure vanity and the few that do have game effects (e.g. treasure hunter) are useful to the player maxed out or not. They're there for those who want to work for them, those that don't shouldn't care. Yet, for whatever reason, they do have a problem, and they're down right vocal about it.

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

So, first you say that LS should stay because it is lazy, and then you say you'd rather have Ursan, even though they make 10x as much money, 10x faster and 10x easier?

Wow, once more you prove the point that you just can't type without resorting to some sort of made up version of the game that doesn't exist.

You make less money per kill with UB than any form of farming since, ta-da, all the drops will be split eight ways, basic, simple math. Or is there some magic area of the game that drops eight times as much stuff if a full party of Ursanway players enter the instance versus anyone else I don't know about?

Besides, I find nothing wrong with UB at all. It requires a full party of humans to do, that in and of itself is all the nerf it will ever need.

mr_groovy · Mar 27, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

I figure it's neither, he probably meant it as a serious reply. I've come to the conclusion that people like Mr. G honestly believe that every single thing within the game should be achievable by every single player of the game with, if not no effort, certainly much less than *some* items require. It seems to chafe at them that there are a select few goals and items that no reasonable level of play will put in your reach.
.

You got me all figered out

Pls hand me that polar bear on a silver platter

.

>.>

I started this topic because LS takes out a lot of fun out of the game + replayability.
Fun in my book is buying things I want in the game with some certain degree of effort. In the pre LS days this was true. Nowadays it's not.
Fun in my book is also kill stuff, get stuff. Not kill stuff, and hope for stuff to drop >.>
As said before LS made a lot of stuff cheaper in the game, and that's true for all the rare skins, and items. But when it comes to the stuff that he average joe wants, and sees walking in Outposts, that my friend is still at a fixed price.